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Talk:OSI
SMDM Template This style of linking to both the show and the episode seems to have been phased out, but I'd like to get confirmation before I purge them. They generate redlinks as is.--Major Sloan 02:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC) :You mean as in: ? I've never really liked this form of citation, so I'd vote to purge them... that is, if that is what you were referring to. Karen (talk) 07:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC) ::This format was introduced by CzechOut, adopting it from the Star Trek wiki. Having six TV shows to document over there, I can certainly see its importance. But I never really thought we needed it for our two. Phase it out as you please, unless there are major objections. — Paul (talk) 10:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Vandals It would seem that OSI's mandate is under attack by enemy agents. The record is getting long on this. I am loath to propose it, but perhaps locking the page might be needed. As an alterative, restructuring the page so the apparent bot loses it's expected target (And if you aren't a bot: yeah I just called you one!). Thoughts?--Major Sloan 00:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC) :I've already alerted Scott to the issue. It must be a bot -- I can't imagine someone doing this over and over again. We'll find out soon enough. — Paul (talk) 01:06, 3 May 2009 (UTC) ::You're more lenient than I'd have been. Spamming a corporate name, in the comment?? A month! —Major Sloan 05:27, August 5, 2010 (UTC) :::Be my guest. Go get 'em! — Paul (talk) 05:42, August 5, 2010 (UTC) The name's meaning? This isn't something necessarily to add to the article right away because it might be a bit too speculative and POV, but has anyone written about the fact that the name "Office to Scientific Intelligence" isn't really a realistic name for a spy organization? It sounds more like something for a bunch of research scientists to belong to. Do any episodes suggest that this might be some sort of cover -- a disguise to make people think it's a research group when in fact it's the other? Sort of like how MI6 in the Bond films initially disguised itself as Universal Exports, a trading company. Just curious. Does the new Bionic Book Deconstructed offer any suggestions? 23skidoo 14:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC) :In doing a little research I found out there's a real-life OSI so I've added this to the article. 23skidoo 15:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC) ::Way to go on the discovery of the new, real OSI! And re: the fictional OSI's persona, look no further than the big debate below. :) — Paul (talk) 16:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC) Semi-secret Valor answers his own question in his edit summary statement: "While its activities may be secretive, its existence is not." Sounds like "semi-secret" to me. In fact, it makes sense for the OSI to have a public persona; the Mandate section of the article does a fine job of illustrating the "semi-secret" balance. Of course Howard Smith refers to it (Kill Oscar (Part III))-- who else but Oscar Goldman of the Office of Scientific Intelligence to comment on a sudden, mysterious weather phenomenon? And besides, Oscar refers to OSI as a semi-secret organization at the very top of (Fembots in Las Vegas). I was only quoting him. ;) — Paul (talk) 13:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC) :This was your entry? No wonder it was reverted back. Word to the wise: "semi-secret" organizations usually do not refer to themselves as such. If you're an intelligence agency, "secretive" activities are implied and expected. Therefore, "secret" as a descriptive adjective should only be used if the org itself is not known to the general public, and we know that's not the case here. Waaaaay too many liberties are being taken on this page, i.e. OSI as a subdivision of the State Department. Conjecture does not = fact. User:Valor ::Um, how is it conjecture that the OSI is a subdivision of the State Department? Oscar's boss is the Secretary of State. It's directly stated in "Winning is Everything". "The Jailing of Jaime" all but comes out and says it's Henry Kissinger. CzechOut ☎ | 22:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC) :::Look, I was only trying to convey the OSI's dual identity. It has a public persona and a private one. Semi-secret seemed an appropriate term. And when I remembered that Oscar uses this exact same term to describe it, well then it became an ideal term. I think calling it simply an espionage agency -- while true -- does not cover OSI completely. Your Howard K. Smith example is perfect; if OSI was only an espionage agency, why the heck would ABC News be seeking its opinion on a scientific mystery? If you can suggest a better term that represents both identities of OSI, we'll gladly consider it. :::And c'mon, the roots of OSI are logical conclusions based on glaring evidence in those episodes; it's hardly conjecture. — Paul (talk) 16:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC) ::::See, I like the word "semi-secret" for an entirely different reason. They say they have this Level 6 security clearance thing, right? But yet in, I'll say it again, every damned episode, some completely random schmoe off the street gets to learn enough about bionics to know that the OSI is semi-secret. Besides there are enough disgruntled ex-employees and ex-contractors out there to write half a dozen New York Times bestseller-list exposés . . . CzechOut ☎ | 10:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC) :::::I'm too lazy to dig up my tape of "WIE." Do you have the exact phrasing/dialogue? The coy Kissinger reference at the conclusion of "JOJ" is declarative of nothing. He was a major celebrity at the time, and it's no surprise that the writers tried to work him in. They did the same thing on Six Mill. The director of the CIA talks to several different "Secretaries" depending on the jobs they do. Oscar would be no different. If the OSI helped out State, he'd talk to Kissinger. If they recovered a stolen currency plate, he'd receive thanks from the Sec of the Treasury. And so on. I'm beginning to think that this all comes down to the whim of the writers. In "BW Part 1," Oscar (on the phone) tells Steve that "Henry Kissinger built up a meaningful relationship and he still gets his job done." Would Oscar, talking from his office phone, refer to his boss (and Steve's boss) by his full name? And how could a State Department subordinate like Oscar unilaterally requisition a nuclear bomb, as he did in "Secret of Bigfoot, Part II"? Kissinger himself couldn't have (legally) done that. In "Return of the Robot Maker," robotic Oscar says "You know who was on that phone? The Secretary." Of course, it was all a bluff, but Steve buys it and goes along thinking it was the real Secretary's instructions. Who would be more likely to dispatch them to test a military installation's defenses on US soil? The State Department, which concerns itself with foreign matters, or the Department of Defense? My money's on the latter. So while some episodes do scream State Department, I think you could just as easily assume that the OSI was a DOD or even Dept. of Energy organization. Remember, the National Security Agency (NSA) is a DOD subgroup. User: Valor ::You'll find greater detail about exact dialogue at The Secretary. ::I would strongly disagree that JOJ's reference is "declarative of nothing". The Secretary they're speaking to at the end is clearly the same Secretary that Oscar's been talking to — and taking direct orders from — throughout the episode. He's not just "a high ranking official of the US government" offering an apology. He's offering his own apologies for his part in Jaime's unfortunate incarceration. ::While I certainly understand that there are a range of possibilities for people Oscar might situationally address as "the Secretary", there's one from whom he very clearly takes orders throughout both series. And that guy is demonstrated to be, in several different ways both direct and subtle, the Secretary of State. ::Beyond just dialogue, however, the preponderence of formal "mission" episodes require a diplomatic effort just to start the ball rolling: Wine, Women and War,The Solid Gold Kidnapping,Survival of the Fittest,Nuclear Alert,Outrage in Balinderry, The Pal-Mir Escort,Little Orphan Airplane,The Coward,Act of Piracy, BW Angel of Mercy, Jaime's Mother, Winning Is Everything, Fly Jaime, Assault on the Princess, Jaime's Shield, Doomsday Is Tomorrow, Jaime and the King, The DeJon Caper, African Connection and all the reunion movies. Now sure, operationally, some of these missions require the use of the military, but just to make these missions possible, Oscar's got to do some diplomatic trickery. ::Not only is there evidence for SecState, there's compelling evidence against others. Check out Oscar's reaction with other government bodies. Clearly, the OSI is not a subdivision of NASA. He's shown to have to make persuasive arguments, rather than give direct orders to, NASA officials in Burning Bright,The Rescue of Athena One,The Deadly Replay, just for a start. Now, he might have the ability to request things of underlings, and to even take "personal responsibility" for a NASA action, but when it comes to the main "authority figures" in an episode, it's clear he can't just order NASA officials to do something but in a rather exceptional way. SecDef is out, too, based upon Day of the Robot. There, a one-star General prevents him from ordering the stop of weapons testing on "his" facility, noting that the OSI's responsibility ended the moment the weapon crossed the Red Canyon Test Site perimeter. ::I'm not saying that it makes a lot of sense from a real-world standpoint. The "Bigfoot" example you give is certainly an example of how it seems, at times, that Oscar's authority veers into that of the DOD. To interject some personal opinion, I think Oscar's ability to order up nuclear weapons here was an example of plausible deniability; he was being used to cover higher executive branch asses than his own. I also think it's plausible that the OSI is the lead agency with direct oversight of nuclear weapons, given Nuclear Alert. Indeed, why wouldn't the OSI have some ability to move nuclear elements, given the apparent centrality of nuclear power to the bionics program as seen in Population Zero? ::Nevertheless, you're right to note how the OSI seems to veer into DOD-land. Canyon of Death is another such example, because there, not only is it explained that General Fuller gave the go-ahead for Jaime's bionics, but Oscar has a voice in deciding whether a new piece of technology will be accepted by the DOD. ::There's little doubt that the OSI straddles Defense and State. But at the end of the day, the OSI shows why the CIA, after initially being split between SecState and SecWar, eventually became its own agency under the aegis of neither, but helpful to both. Technology has peaceful and military applications. In suggesting that the fictional OSI is under SecState, the producers were perhaps noting that the eagle's head on the national seal is pointed towards the olive branches, not the arrows. ::Indeed, the clinching argument against Defense would be this: If the OSI were under Defense, Steve and Jaime would both be warriors. Plain and simple. The missions would all be about wartime use of the two. But they are "agents", not ranked officers. They have to be persuaded and cajoled by their civilian boss — not ordered by their commanding officer — to do certain jobs. Steve's rank of Colonel derives from his being a member of the US Air Force Reserves, with an obligation to do limited active duty annually (The Deadly Test). He ostensibly wouldn't have to do this Reserves duty were he under DOD and therefore active military. The long and short of it is, neither Jaime nor Steve can just be ordered to do something by the military, as evidenced by the occasional request the military makes of Oscar to use his agents. CzechOut ☎ | 01:11, 26 November 2007 (UTC) :Game effort, but no sale. Out of 150+ episodes to scrutinize, the best you can do is three quotes? Everything else is anecdotal/circumstantial evidence sprinkled with a healthy dose of wishful thinking. To put it another way, if this were a courtroom, your "evidence" would hardly rise to the level of "reasonable doubt." Just because Oscar converses with the Secretary of State (or any other Secretary, for that matter) doesn't mean he toils for him. Even the "WIE" dialogue is dicey. I mean, Jaime has to ask who the memo is intended for? If she knew that Oscar worked for the State Dept, it should be perfectly obvious that Kissinger is the likely recipient. But ask she did. And you conveniently ignored the fact the Oscar once cavalierly referred to Kissinger by his full name--something an underling would never do while still at work. And it goes without saying that Oscar would never be that disrespectful. :Not sure how much you know about the US branches of government (I'm assuming you're a British national), but thousands of civilians/civil servants toil at the Pentagon and other military outlets every single day. That goes double for the NSA, another DOD entity. So you needn't be a "warrior" to perform official duties under their respective roofs. And then you have to ask yourself why the State Dept would meddle in so many internal matters that didn't warrant their supervision. In fact, when you think about it, the vast majority of Steve and Jaime's internal assignments would have been deferred to the FBI. Outside the US is a different story, but even that's complicated. Many episodes required no diplomatic string-pulling whatsoever. Steve and Jaime simply went in undercover or parachuted in under a blanket of darkness--no embassy "cover" needed. This is what the CIA (not State) does on a regular basis. If you ask me, the OSI was always meant to be an amalgam of many different (real world) intelligence gathering bodies--which would explain why Steve and Jaime could operate anywhere in the world with seeming impunity. As for NASA, I never implied that it was even a remote possibility. To sum things up, this is all sound and no fury. :::Well, you've significantly misrepresented what I've said. Not sure what this "memo" is to which you refer. Jaime comes into Oscar's office. She hears him say, "Yes, Mr. Secretary" to someone on the phone. She bitches him out for taking her out of class and flying her across the country for the meeting, and then, before he can get a word in edgewise, says, "Was that the Secretary of State?" He says, "Yes, it was." Now, why would she just assume it's SecState unless it was a logical guess? Why would it be a logical guess if SecState wasn't their boss? :::Thing is, the OSI is kept vague for those 150+ episodes. There aren't many references to go by. To have three clear ones is a big deal, not "wishful thinking". See, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. There are positive references to SecState. Thus, it's that contention which must be disproved. So, unless you can come up with hard evidence to the contrary, you're the one making assertions which "don't rise to level of reasonable doubt". :::I really think you need to look at "Jailing" again. It's clear he's crystal clear he's working for the Secretary. Here's a transcript of a relevant portion: ::A phone rings in jail. ;OSCAR: I put a call in to the Secretary. I asked him to release you, so we can work on this together ;JAIME: Anything. Just get me out of here. ;OSCAR (on phone): Good Morning, Mr. Secretary. Oh I didn't know that you spoke to Mr. Gregory. No I have no further evidence that refutes his — but I do have a plan. I thought maybe you'd let Jaime go — Uh, pardon me sir, but may I respectfully ask why? Immediately? Very well, Mr. Secretary, I will. Thank you. ;JAIME: What happened? ;OSCAR: I can't believe it. He doesn't want me to interfere with the investigation. ;JAIME: Why? ;OSCAR: He was talking with Gregory. Martine's thumbprint evidently is incriminating. He says that I can't be objective in this assignment because of my high regard for you, and he wants me to go to Washington for a Board of Inquiry. ;JAIME: Wait a minute, what happens to me? You mean I'm stuck here? ;OSCAR: For the time being, yes. ;JAIME: Oscar I can't just sit in here with my neck in the noose. This thing'd open up like a sardine can. ::''Jaime pulls the bars apart, bionically. ;OSCAR: Listen, listen. You do that and you really will look guilty. ;JAIME: Then assign someone to find that helicopter pilot. ;OSCAR: Listen, I can't assign a janitor to empty a waste paper basket. Not on this case. :::Hence, Oscar takes orders from the Secretary, later identified in the same episode as being someone with a delightful German accent. CzechOut ☎ | 13:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC) :Thanks for the transcript, but I remain unconvinced. Memo or phone call, it doesn't make sense that she'd ask which Secretary he was speaking to. And if she did so because he routinely converses with many different Cabinet Secretaries depending on the job at hand, well, that only backs up my theory. Again, I believe this comes down to the writers. They made more of an effort to imply "State Dept" on BW than Six Mill. You cite JOJ, and I've cited examples where it would have been inconceivable that Oscar was doing the Sec. of State's bidding. If the writers were inconsistent about the moonwalks or Steve's age, why not this issue? And if State really were the template, I think they would have dropped more than three hints over the years. In any event, I think we've entered "agree to disagree" territory, and I don't want this to devolve into Star Trek-like geekiness. It's not that important. User:Valor Citation Needed :* Office of Strategic Information :::Citation found! See article. — Paul (talk) 13:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC) :* Office of Strategic Investigation — If I had to lay money on it, I'd guess this is actually another Charlton thing. However, my collection's missing issues 5-9 of the SMDM comic book and all of the SMDM magazine. Anyone out there have these who could take a look? I'd probably start by taking a hard look at the text stories at the back of the comic book . . . CzechOut ☎ | 23:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC) OSI Names Was the OSI referred to as different names during the series? According to Wikipedia (which isn't always right), the novel Cyborg called it the Office of Strategic Information. Then they changed it to the Office of Strategic Intelligence for the show. However, in "Welcome Home, Jaime," Oscar is recording a memo and he calls it the Office of Scientific Investigation. Paul changed the article to say Office of Scientific Intelligence, which was actually a real department of the CIA (which is now called the Directorate of Science and Technology. So, I'm confused! — Scott (talk) 17:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC) :Yeah, it's been called a bunch of names, starting with Office of Strategic Operations in the novel and pilot (I'll have to correct that Wikepedia article) and Office of Scientific Information in the reunion movies. But Intelligence was most frequently used during the bulk of the shows' run. -- Alex7000 18:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC) ::Okay, you should probably move this article then. — Scott (talk) 18:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC) ::: Move it? Move it to where? Alex7000 18:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC) ::::You corrected the text to call it Office of Scientific Intelligence, but the article is currently at Office of Strategic Intelligence (based on my incorrect Wikipedia findings). However, I wonder if the article should just be named OSI? That was the most common reference on the shows, and then we can have a section in the article that discusses the discrepancies in what the acronym stood for. — Scott (talk) 18:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC) :::::I think that's a fantastic idea. Alex7000 18:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC) ::::::Hoo boy. The OSI debate. This has been argued to death by the fandom. I think it's wise that you simply entitled this article OSI. :) Here's the way I look at the situation. ::::::*I agree with Paul, that because the bulk of the mentions were Office of Scientific Intelligence, this is what I have come to understand as the de-facto definition of the acronym. You actually see the words written on doors, many times in the episodes of both shows. An early example I can think of is when Dr. Dolenz visits the OSI in "Return of the Robot Maker", and we can see the writing on the glass doors. But there is probably even an earlier episode that demonstrates this. ::::::*I personally feel that Office of Scientific Investigation makes the most sense, but that is my personal opinion which has no place in a Wiki sticking to the facts. :) I feel the "Investigation" appelation is good because it immediately evokes the idea that their organization investigates crime, espionage, etc. and that is exactly what the OSI does in the show. However, "Investigation" can also be applied to the idea that they pursue investigation of scientific research, which is what the OSI also does. ::::::*As for what episodes or movies state exactly which definition when — at the moment I can't remember them all. But I do know these: ::::::**Paul is correct, Office of Scientific Information is used in the reunion movies. ::::::**Office of Strategic Information is never used in Martin Caidin's novels. It's always Office of Strategic Operations. I don't know if the novels written by other authors strayed from this, though. ::::::**Office of Strategic Operations and Office of Scientific Intelligence (well, specifically "OSI" on an office door) were both used in the syndicated version of the pilot. As you know, the OSI reference is a continuity error created by slopping in footage from later episodes. ::::::**I don't recall Office of Strategic Information or Office of Strategic Investigation ever being used anywhere, but I will have to do further research to know for sure. Regardless, they are possible interpretations that Wiki readers might try to look for just the same. Oh and I just checked, and Office of Strategic Intelligence is mentioned in the Bionic Woman comic book. ::::::— redrain85 (talk) 01:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC) ::::::::Wow, nice work! — Scott (talk) 02:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC) As one who has been involved in the argument over the meaning of OSI at Wikipedia, I'd like to suggest the same approach - just use OSI - be adopted there. I've already made a change to the main SMDM article, including a link to this article. But there are those who seem to feel Office of Scientific Information (an acronym I have no memory of even though I've seen all the regular SMDM episodes many times) is the definitive one. This article proves it is not. 68.146.41.17 14:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC) Office of Strategic Intelligence Just to revive the old argument, I have found at least one source where this name is used: the Welcome Home, Jaime novel. I have added this in the "other products". I say "other novels" as I'm pretty confident it's mentioned in at least one other book. Pilot Error comes to mind but I need to read it again to be ceratin. I actually plan on re-reading all the novels this spring (my interest in SMDM and BW being renewed by the new series and my obtaining recordings of the first season of SMDM which I haven't seen in 30 years) so if I find any other references in the books I'll add them here. 23skidoo 16:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC) * I also found it in one of the activity books I recently added to the wiki. 23skidoo 14:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)